Thread

Date: February 11, 2000 02:30 PM
Author: Colonel O'Truth (Alonzow@usa.net)
Subject: They've got a point

Jesus the Man was a model for His followers (1 Peter 2:21), but Jesus the Messiah was not non-violent. Click here to find out why I worship a violent and vengeful Jesus.

Jesus really was completely non-violent in his ministry (I don't count clearing the temple as violence), He preached pretty plainly on not resisting evil, and He walked it out, all the way to the cross. On top of that, the apostles mostly died for their faith, and none of them with a sword in hand. And the early Christians died for their faith without armed resistance. They really gave us nothing to hang our hats on when it comes to defending our lives and property. Why couldn't Jesus just have said, "Now, don't try this at home!"

The Constantinian Establishment has long denied the plain teachings of many parts of Scripture, just as the Anabaptists were an embarrassment to the Reformers, and forced Calvin to declare that the idea that the civil magistrate must be governed by the Mosaic judicials was "stupid and false."

So now we have to make complex theological arguments for why we live differently than Jesus and the apostles did, or why are justified in defending our lives, liberty and property, since they didn't do it themselves. It's easy for us to look like we are explaining away our own Savior's plain teaching. Somebody tell me it ain't so! And now it appears that the pacifists are stealing our tactic of writing the opposition to death. I'm getting a headache!

I agree with brother Foreman. No one wins against the State. At least on an individual basis. Suicide is a sin. Look at the Davidians in Waco. Follow them if you want, I'll follow Jesus.

So, I can't even defend my own family from direct attack? From jack-booted thugs breaking into my own house? I may as well quit GOA and disarm myself and save Clinton the trouble? For by doing so, I am helping to bring about the withering away of the State?

God does not send Gun Control legislation to Christian populations, but to Humanistic societies that worship their own "personal peace and affluence." Storing guns and defending yourself is not the way to avoid a genocidal dictatorship.

It's funny how disarmed populations have not advanced us very far in that direction during the 20th century!

I'm ready to give up all attempts to understand God and man. It's Friday - I quit! Have a great weekend. Let me know if you figure anything out.

This is such a ridiculous thing to say. A sinful thing to say. You excommunicate anyone who tries to obey 1 Peter 2:21????

Date: February 11, 2000 03:05 PM
Author: JL Foreman (acf@swva.net)
Subject: We excommunicate them in our Church

Pacifism as a principled belief system is systematically opposed to Scripture's teaching on loving your neighbor both individually and corporately.

Yes, it is suicide, and yes, you would be wrong to commit suicide by a pathetic macho display of resistance against Janet Reno and her jackbooted thugs.

There are times when the best thing to do is to be 100% passive -- for instance I would say, "No," Colonel "you should not try to defend your fam against jack-booted thugs. Unless suicide is noble, compliance is the wisest route." But "No, you would not be wrong if you did and died trying."

Name one person who takes as a principle a refusal to defend a neighbor. Down below you speak of doing so "passively" by merely intervening. This is certainly a normal pacifist reaction. I believe physical force is appropriate, and I have written of my own experiences here. My body can be a barrier between the innocent and the aggressor. But my primary goal is to be willing, with Christ, to lose my life rather than take the life of another.

But to make a principle out of refusing to defend your neighbor is sin. It's giving the shirt off of your family's back.

Cowards lead the way to hell. If you have it in your power to protect your neighbor but do not protect him His blood is on your head. (Proverbs 24:12) This is why Christians are responsible to work toward, teach, and vote for Biblical systems of government and Biblical laws to enforce. That is our corporate protection of the innocent and weak from the evil and strong corporately loving our neighbor.

Love your neighbor as yourself is not an option. It means to protect his life and well being if you have the strength to do so whether you act passively and merely intervene, or actively and use greater force. Failure to do so if you can protect him is failure to love him.

This is the kind of unrealistic, macho rhetoric which insures that no politician will ever publicly acknowledge any connection to the Reconstructionist movement. This rhetoric is lawless and unChristlike. It is slander. Does your church excommunicate slanderers?

Pacifism for the sake of conscience will let rape murder and theft go on just so miss panty lace in my heart can say, "I prayed but did nothing, I buried my talent in the ground and refused to rescue those being dragged to death. their death while I stood by refusing to protect them is just what God wanted."

As I said, although we are commanded to be anarcho-pacifists, Jesus the Archist was not a pacifist. And during the "days of vengeance," no Christians took up arms. It was the Romans who used the sword.

Of course Jesus was passive -- it was his mission to come and die. Right before his death he let it be known that the turning point was coming and the days of vengeance were a generation off.

Simply not true. He could have died with a sword in His hand. He didn't. And He warned His followers that those who take up the sword will be judged (Matthew 26:52).

His minstry on earth before this death resurrection and ascension could not have been accompolished if he fought back. He read from Isaiah 64 about the Spirit of the Lord being upon him to bind up the brokenhearted, release the captive, and declare the jubilee year of redemption. But in those last days of his life here, he described the coming judgment on Jerusalem declaring them "the days of vengeance of our God." Luke 17 a word for word quote from the passage he quoted at the beginning of his ministry in Isaiah 64 right where he left that quote off.

This is fallacious reasoning. I do not deny that God ordained Assyria to judge Israel, or Saddam Hussein to judge Kuwait. I maintain that the actions of Assyria and Saddam were lawless, contrary to God's Commandments, and God judged them for their disobedience. God ordains evil. That does not mean I should "vote" for evil, even the "lesser" of two evils.

Furthermore it's not a complex argument. Either God ordained the state to use force agaisnt the wrong doer or he hasen't. If he has, then so much for the pure pacifist position. If you don't think he has then you must deny the heart of God's word and law and plan for these last days -- which began at Pentecost and continue to the close of the age.

What does it mean that the powers shall be under His feet? We are to wrestle against the powers. (Eph 6:12) And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. (Rom 16:20) Does this mean that the saints shall "vote" for Satan, and exalt him? When the powers are under Jesus' feet will they be happy? Will they be feeling on top of the world?

Those who are feeling comfortable and nice are those whose personal peace and affluence are defended by jackbooted thugs.

He shall have dominion and that means every knee shall bow, every principality and power shall be placed under his feet in fact, even as they were placed under his feet in principel at the cross and ascension.

To deny this is to deny the Lordship of Christ. Go find another Church where you can feel comfortable and nice.

If you were elected President, would you order U.S. military forces to commit genocide against any nation? Would you engage U.S. troops in an act of Holy War? Why hold out acts of national capital punishment as some kind of norm when you would never think of carrying out such a strategy today? I don't get the feeling "brother" is interested in serious study of the Scripture, when the adrenaline is pumped up so much better by slogans. But if I'm wrong, click here.

What in the blazes are you talking about! Do you call Israel shooting its way into Canaan PACIFIST? Do you call slaughtering whole cities and not sparing even one person PACIFIST? God is pacifist if you're not in a position of governing authority... but if you bear the name of magistrate/soldier its your DUTY to get out there and destroy the wicked in the name of Christ.

I never said God is a pacifist. Not once. I only said He commands US to be pacifists. The God I worship is a violent and vengeful God.

God is NO PACIFIST, as long as we're talking about legitimately armed authorities. Does He expect you to take revenge into your own hands? No, because then you have stopped trusting in Him. Vengeance is MINE, saith the LORD.

This line about "legitimately armed authorities" is completely lacking in any political realism. No wonder Christians aren't trusted to apply Biblical Law in the modern world.

If we are not to take vengeance into our own hands, how is it permissible for us to "vote" for someone else to take vengeance for us? How do we evade the force of God's monopoly of vengeance by "hiring" a mercenary army to take vengeance on our enemies? There is no such thing as a "legitimately armed authority." All who take up the sword are under God's curse (Matthew 26:52).

They've got a point		Colonel O'Truth	02/11/00
We excommunicate them in our Church		JL Foreman	02/11/00
	WHAT?	brother	02/11/00
BUT I completely		brother	02/11/00
How wrong is Pacifism?		JL Foreman	02/11/00

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