21 messages posted in selected forums since your last session began:

	PROVERBS	brother	2/17/00
	Speaking of "choice,"...	Lisa Bowden	2/16/00
	sorry	brother	2/16/00
	Re: Gary Bauer....BLECHHHH	David Mueller	2/16/00
	Confused	Russ Warren	2/16/00
	PUT SIMPLY	brother	2/16/00
	Re: Guns, Canada, and Men	Jason	2/16/00
	You see that	brother	2/16/00
	What do I mean?	brother	2/16/00
	EYE FOR EYE; TOOTH FOR TOOTH	brother	2/16/00
	Idea of Holy War	brother	2/16/00
	Why Pacifists Are Wrong	brother	2/16/00
	In the Bible	brother	2/16/00
	Keith	brother	2/16/00
	Yikes	Gordan	2/16/00
	Matthew 15:3?	Lurquer	2/16/00
	Reading minds...	Russ Warren	2/16/00
	ALRIGHT	brother	2/16/00
	Go to	brother	2/16/00
	Re: Don't you get it?	Kevin Craig	2/16/00
	Don't you get it?	brother	2/16/00

Date: February 17, 2000 12:14 AM
Author: brother
Subject: PROVERBS

Proverbs also proves Kevin false. Lets look at Proverbs 16.

"Kings detest wrongdoing, for a throne is established through righteousness" (16:12)

God UPHOLDS the righteous king

"The lips of a king speak as an oracle, and his mouth should not betray justice"

God expects kings to uphold justice, precisely because THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE CREATED FOR.

As you can see, governments and kings are NOT EVIL. But appointed by God specifically for the purpose of upholding justice through wrath and violence.

As you can see, pacifism does not hold up to the Word of God.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39753)

Date: February 16, 2000 11:36 PM
Author: Lisa Bowden (tlbowden@mis.net)
Subject: Speaking of "choice,"...

... let's not forget,... Dub-ya's mother is Pro-Choice.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39751)

Date: February 16, 2000 11:23 PM
Author: brother
Subject: sorry

sorry

I meant Kevin.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39750)

Date: February 16, 2000 10:56 PM
Author: David Mueller (Jehu2Kings10@juno.com)

"Gary Bauer is a Republican first and an American second."

And Christian does not even make the list.

dgm

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39749)

Date: February 16, 2000 10:51 PM
Author: Russ Warren (rvwarren1@home.com)
Subject: Confused

Are you replying to me (Russ) or to Keith (not Russ)?

Russ, not Keith (I'm writing this with a chuckle b/c Francis Schaeffer always said "A is A" and "A is therefore not a non-A", in other words, Russ is Russ, but Russ is not a non-Russ (i.e. a Keith).)

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39748)

Date: February 16, 2000 10:49 PM
Author: brother
Subject: PUT SIMPLY

PUT SIMPLY, Paul does not say that we are to support the state just because we are not to resist evil and be pacifists! NO! Paul says we are to support the state PRECISELY BECAUSE it is God's minister to execute vengeance on evildoers. WE are to endorse state sponsered killing and vengeance, as long as it is in conformity with the law of God

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39747)

Date: February 16, 2000 10:46 PM
Author: Jason (kyosunim@hushmail.com)

I notice that there is a lot of debate going around about guns. Personally, I do agree with the principal of the right to bear arms. Being Canadian, I wish that one were allowed to buy arms more freely. However, it SEEMS (and maybe I am wrong) that there are a lot less gun problems in Canada than in the states. People usually don't walk into school and start blowing everyone away, and teachers never get shot and they don't have to live in fear for their lives. (Granted, there was one incident in Montreal a few years back, where a male student who had reapeadly been refused admission to study egineering in university, shot 14 female engineering students).

Any thoughts? A lot of Canadians are pretty smug about crime and violence in the states (There is no Canadian city where you can't walk around at night a feel like you might get killed if you are the wrong colour). I am not one of those people. I would love to live in the states. But what y'all think?

Question #2: Why is it that most crime is committed by men? Looking for an objective answer here, not cynical remarks of radical feminists please. Why do men seem much more inclined to commit crime and violence then women?

God bless, Jason

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39746)

Date: February 16, 2000 10:46 PM
Author: brother
Subject: You see that

my last point in this note complete undermine's Kevin's argument "why then do you vote for civil rulers who seek vengeance." We vote for and support the state PRECISELY BECAUSE we want the state to arrest evil and people who harm us! That is what Paul says in Romans 13. It is a good thing for us to desire that the state seek vengeance on evildoers. Let me requote the passage for you:

Therefore you MUST BE SUBJECT, not only because of wrath BUT FOR CONSCIENCE'S SAKE"

See Paul is saying don't only be subject because you fear, but for the sake of your own conscience. Sinning against the state is violating the very law of God. God is BEHIND the state.

"For this you pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing"

The state is God's minister to ARREST EVIL. IT IS FOR THIS VERY REASON that we are to pay taxes, because by paying taxes we are helping to arrest evil. So you see the state, a good state, is appointed and liked by God... and God sees it as a legitimate instrument to destroy evil. It is a GOOD MINISTRY. The state, when bound by God's laws and justice, is a GOOD THING.

It is NOT a good thing to take PERSONAL vengeance. IT IS a good thing to support the state to take vengeance.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39745)

Date: February 16, 2000 10:43 PM
Author: brother
Subject: What do I mean?

What do I mean when I say that Keven is bypassing Romans 13? This is what I mean:

"For he is God's minister TO YOU FOR GOOD. But if you do evil, be afriad; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to EXECUTE WRATH on him who PRACTICES EVIL"

Now what we see here is that the civil magistrate is not only a minister, but a minister TO US. He is a minister to the Christian. He is not only a minister to the Christian, he is a minister to the Christian FOR GOOD. It is a good ministry. It is a ministry that EXECUTES WRATH ON THOSE WHO PRACTICE EVIL. If something is a good ministry, it is not opposed to God.

"Therefore you MUST BE SUBJECT, not only because of wrath BUT FOR CONSCIENCE'S SAKE"

See Paul is saying don't only be subject because you fear, but for the sake of your own conscience. Sinning against the state is violating the very law of God. God is BEHIND the state.

"For this you pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing"

The state is God's minister to ARREST EVIL. IT IS FOR THIS VERY REASON that we are to pay taxes, because by paying taxes we are helping to arrest evil. So you see the state, a good state, is appointed and liked by God... and God sees it as a legitimate instrument to destroy evil. It is a GOOD MINISTRY. The state, when bound by God's laws and justice, is a GOOD THING.

This is what Kevin is bypassing.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39744)

Date: February 16, 2000 09:37 PM
Author: brother
Subject: EYE FOR EYE; TOOTH FOR TOOTH

These are God's commands to the magistrates and judges during the time of Moses. You see, it is not that empires are inherently evil. Whether or not they are evil depends upon the gods they serve. The moabites and their kings were an evil empire, they worshipped Baal. Ancient Israel was a godly empire in the sense that it outwardly and in its laws worshiped the true God.

Where does the Bible say that EYE FOR EYE and TOOTH FOR TOOTH were mere ceremonial shadows? Where does the Bible say that EYE FOR EYE and TOOTH FOR TOOTH no longer need to be observed? No where that I can tell. God has always stated that we are not to seek revenge on those who harm us, but instead turn the other cheek and be kind to them. God also has always stated that civil government must take eye for eye and tooth for tooth.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39743)

Date: February 16, 2000 09:12 PM
Author: brother
Subject: Idea of Holy War

The Old Testament concept of Holy War implies Generals, Armies. Abraham was a general, king, and patriarch of his people. Abraham warred against other kings when they took His nephew Lot.

Where do the scriptures say that these wars were nothing other than prefigurations of the work of Christ? The fact is they don't say it. Yes death atones for sin, whether it be the death of Christ or that someone dies and goes to hell. Both atone for the sins committed. Simple mention that death of Cannan atones for their sins doesn't prove that this is ONLY a symbol. Without the scriptural proof Kevin has no right to make this claim.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39742)

Date: February 16, 2000 08:17 PM
Author: brother
Subject: Why Pacifists Are Wrong

1. They claim that the commands for capital punishment deal with blood sacrifice. Where is the scriptural proof for this? They have none. The book of Hebrews doesn't do away with the magistrate, it only does away with the TEMPLE system and Aaronic priesthood.

2. They must contradict themselves. They claim that God only uses evil empires to kill and punish evildoers. This would make Israel under Joshua an evil and wicked empire by obeying God's commands to kill the Cannanites!

3. Romans 13 states that it is only EVILDOERS who should rightfully be fearing the state. If only EVILDOERS should be rightfully fearing the state, and not those who do good, how can one call the state itself evil? Don't evil institutions, or people, by nature harm good people? How many times must we read this in the Psalms.

All in all... Keith doesn't stand up to scripture. His theology places incredible burdens on passages, and wrests scripture outside of its intended meaning. He would make Jesus inconsistent when He defends capital punishment in Matthew 15.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39741)

Date: February 16, 2000 08:06 PM
Author: brother
Subject: In the Bible

do we see in Psalm 2 Patriarchs kissing the Son or Kings? KINGS KISS THE SON. They kiss the Son. What does this mean? Does this mean ending their kingdom and making it into an anarchy? Hardly! It means the kings pass the just laws of God.

Keith- God calls the Kings MINISTERS OF JUSTICE. Justice has been revealed by God's Word. How are Kings working evil if they are simply dispensing this justice of God? Are the magistrates of ancient Israel EVIL because they are dispensing the justice of God? Is Joshua EVIL for slaughtering the Moabites in Canaan? HARDLY!

Your theology is inconsistent. God does not contradict Himself like this.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39740)

Date: February 16, 2000 07:49 PM
Author: brother
Subject: Keith

You seem to completely ignore the fact that Abraham picked up arms and chased after the oppressors of Lot. You seem to completely ignore the fact that God wanted Israely to go and wipe out the people in the promised land, and God considered this activity on the part of His people neither sinful nor wicked. Would God contradict Himself?

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39739)

Date: February 16, 2000 07:10 PM
Author: Gordan (desertrat@plateautel.net)
Subject: Yikes

Joe was right. I was joking. Still, I hate to see us question the guy's Christian commitment just because he believes, apparently, that McCain is a better choice than "W."

Now, don't get in an uproar...I didn't say I agreed with the guy. But I think it's just possible that Bauer's choice of McCain has less to do with McCain than it does with the Bush family.

Bauer may in fact be a die-hard fan of the Gipper, who then saw George Bush come and surrender the entire "Reagan Revolution," whether or not that is actually true, and whether or not there really was anything revolutionary about Reagan.

Even if Bauer is as passionately pro-life as he told people he was, I've got to confess that I don't think W is really any more willing to take on Roe v. Wade than McCain. McCain's just more straightforward about it.

By the way, what is with McCain's arms? Or maybe it's his shoulders? His war injuries were to his legs, right? So how come he holds his arms funny, like the shoulder-joints are in backwards?

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39738)

Date: February 16, 2000 07:09 PM
Author: Lurquer (kuros-ray@usa.net)
Subject: Matthew 15:3?

What verse did you mean to cite?

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39737)

Date: February 16, 2000 06:57 PM
Author: Russ Warren (rvwarren1@home.com)
Subject: Reading minds...

Gee, would you like to point out WHERE I said I was reading Paul's mind? That might clear up some things, because if I read correctly, I used SCRIPTURE contexts to clarify SCRIPTURE. Maybe that is what Luther meant by the perspecutity of Scripture. No that can't be it, instead I'm going to wait for a seven headed dragon who will place 666 on my head.

Russ

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39736)

Date: February 16, 2000 06:30 PM
Author: brother
Subject: ALRIGHT

I see what you're saying in the 95 theses. However, if you reject capital punishment of the Mosaic economy I have to discount your theory. God intends for justice to be maintained. To the extent that God appointed judges over tens, over thousands etc etc... that can bolster the fact that God's ideal system works from the ground (family) upward. A patriarchal society is indeed quite ideal. Nevertheless, you do have to remember that hard cases were decided by judges who presided over thousands of people in ancient Israel. You can hardly call these individuals close family. IN addition, the death penalty was often assigned. IN addition, Moses was not a priest, yet Moses and Joseph were appointed by God to lead Israel into the tasks at hand, these men were in some sense national leaders, who also commanded the death sentence. I can see where you derive that Christ would be that Moses or Joshua now, and of course you're right. With Christ as King that is very good, but that does not mean that the civil magistrate has been done away, especially the kind described under Moses. Give me the scriptural proof of that. There is none. Jesus upholds civil punishments in Matthew 15:3. So I'd modify your understanding of an ideal patriarchal society, and include the allowance of capital punishment by appointed magistrates. The fact is, someone has to judge disputes. These people are the magistrates, the kind early Israel had before the Davidic kingdom. These have not been done away, unless you can claim to prove it from scripture.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39735)

Date: February 16, 2000 06:20 PM
Author: brother
Subject: Go to

Exodus Chapter 18

Read verses 17. As you can see Moses was the civil government, judging disputes between individuals. Read carefully verse 23. GOD COMMANDED Moses to do this and that is why he did it.

God COMMANDED Moses to appointed JUDGES and MAGISTRATES to decide cases. When someone was found guilty God commanded them to BE PUT TO DEATH. See Exodus 22 for examples like witches.

What part of this isn't clear to you?

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39734)

Date: February 16, 2000 06:02 PM
Author: Kevin Craig (Kevin4VFT@aol.com)
Subject: Re: Don't you get it?

Brother writes:

God formed civil government in the Old Testament to maintain justice among the people. Therefore it IS GOOD.

http://members.aol.com/VF95Theses/index.htm

And as I look at history, I find that wherever the State is, injustice reigns. The more powerful the State, the less justice we have.

Just because God "forms" something does not mean it is good. See the verses here:

http://members.aol.com/Patriarchy/predestination/sendevil.htm#1

1 Peter 2:18 says,

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

And just because God is sovereign over the acts of Hitler or Judas Iscariot and the acts of these froward people "serve" God's purposes does not mean that being Hitler or Judas is the Theonomic thing to do. The State is God's froward minister.

Phil 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a froward and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this froward generation.

Kevin C.
http://members.aol.com/VF95Theses/paradigm.htm
---------------------------------------------

And they shall beat their swords into plowshares
and sit under their Vine & Fig Tree.
Micah 4:1-7

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39733)

Date: February 16, 2000 05:49 PM
Author: brother
Subject: Don't you get it?

Don't you get it? God formed civil government in the Old Testament to maintain justice among the people. Therefore it IS GOOD.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39732)