Subj:
Date: 7/28/00 4:15:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: comunicus@hotmail.com (drolvak srank)
To: KEVIN4VFT@aol.com

Kev,

Change this first paragraph from your V&FT home page. It sounds
disingenious.

You are comparing the non-sanctioned deaths in AMERICA (10,000)
with the sanction deaths GLOBALLY (100,000).

That smacks of statistical slight of hand to prove a point.


------------------------------


As we prepare to enter the next century, we look back on the most violent,
barbaric, atheistic and lawless century in human history. Over the last few
years, over 10,000 people have been murdered each year in the United States
without government approval. But over the last 100 years, across the globe,
an average of 10,000 per day have been murdered with government approval.
Each of these governments claims to be better than the others, but they are
all part of the same ideology, the same "New World Order."




Subj: Re:
Date: 7/29/00
To: comunicus@hotmail.com

Do you have the recent annual statistics for murder world-wide? I don't.
That's why I had to make an uneven comparison. I only had US stats
for unapproved crime.


Kevin C.
http://members.aol.com/VF95Theses/paradigm.htm
---------------------------------------------

And they shall beat their swords into plowshares
and sit under their Vine & Fig Tree.
Micah 4:1-7




Subj: Re:
Date: 8/1/00 11:45:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: comunicus@hotmail.com (drolvak srank)
To: KEVIN4VFT@aol.com

Well, you brought up another problem that needs fixing...

What the heck does "government sanctioned" mean?

In Rommell's figures, he uses thinks as direct as deaths by bombing to
things sort of nebulous like deaths due to famines caused by bad policies.
And, his figures do not discount the number of people saved or prevented
from being murdered by the governemnts.

Domestically, you will not be able to show that cops kill more people than
non-cops do.

And, the idea that the blame for abortions lies at the feet of the
government implies that you advocate the government enacting laws to
prohibit abortion and, presumably, punish and lock up abortion providers --
a position inconsistent with the rest of your site.

If the point you are trying to make is that governments kill more than
citizens do, you will be unable to prove this using your statistics.

Even if you proved beyond a doubt that cops kill more people than non-cops,
you still have done nothing to show that more people would not have been
murdered had there been no cops.

I think Rommell's figures are very powerful. If it was me, I wouldn't try
to force some comparison to non-government deaths. When you do that, the
reader (i.e. me) starts thinking of why your comparison may or may not be
fallacious instead of focusing on the millions of people slaughtered by
governemnts in this century.




Subj: Re:
Date: 8/1/00
To: comunicus@hotmail.com

In a message dated 8/1/00 11:45:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, comunicus@hotmail.com writes:

>
> Well, you brought up another problem that needs fixing...
>
> What the heck does "government sanctioned" mean?

Deaths which the government will not intervene to prevent or will not
punish criminally. (Obviously includes things like bombings or
pogroms.)

> In Rommell's figures, he uses thinks as direct as deaths by bombing to
> things sort of nebulous like deaths due to famines caused by bad policies.

Not just famines which are the unintended result of bad policies, but
famines which were deliberately induced to shift populations toward
more-regulated urban areas or to purge counter-revolutionary or
traditional rural populations. Famines as pogroms or purges.
Famines as a deliberate policy of government murder.

> And, his figures do not discount the number of people saved or prevented
> from being murdered by the governemnts.

Even if the State claimed to do this (and it doesn't -- I recently ran across
a case in which someone sued the State for failure to prevent a murder,
and the US Soopremes ruled that there is no such assurance made
by the State -- the State only punishes AFTER the fact), it would be
impossible to quantify statistically.

> Domestically, you will not be able to show that cops kill more people than
> non-cops do.

That's not the issue. (Especially if by "cops" you mean "police" rather than
Dick Cheney.) The point is that the criminals in the American
government kill more people than the so-called "criminals" against which
the government is believed to be in battle. Voters believe the government
protects them from criminals, failing to realize that the government
is the biggest criminal. Name a field of crime, and the government
commits that crime 10,000 times more than private criminals.
Citizens are more in danger of being robbed or killed by governments
than by criminals. And not just domestically, but international
killings and confiscations must be considered:

"The increase in mortality reported in public hospitals for children
under five years of age (an excess of some 40,000 deaths yearly
compared with 1989) is mainly due to diarrhea, pneumonia and
malnutrition. In those over five years of age, the increase (an excess
of some 50,000 deaths yearly compared with 1989) is associated with
heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, cancer, liver or kidney diseases."
Approximately 250 people die every day in Iraq due to the effect of the sanctions.
- UNICEF, April 1998.
http://www.iacenter.org/sanimpct.htm

Private sector criminals cannot match the government's killing record.

> And, the idea that the blame for abortions lies at the feet of the
> government implies that you advocate the government enacting laws to
> prohibit abortion and, presumably, punish and lock up abortion providers --
> a position inconsistent with the rest of your site.

No such conclusion is logically required. The government is actively
involved in suppressing pro-life activity. The government COULD
stand back and let pro-life forces overwhelm pro-death forces.
The government COULD use its bully pulpit to oppose abortion
even if neither doctor nor mother were punished criminally in any way.
The Supreme Court could strike down criminal punishments
against abortion while still permitting states to criminalize it.
The government funds planned parenthood on an international scale.
There are lots of thing the State could STOP doing to lower
the abortion rate.

> If the point you are trying to make is that governments kill more than
> citizens do, you will be unable to prove this using your statistics.

The point is MASSIVELY proven even if all the questions you raise
go your way. Rummel's title is all too appropriate: "Death by Government."
The numbers are not even close. Government kills more than criminals
by several orders of magnitude.

> Even if you proved beyond a doubt that cops kill more people than non-cops,
> you still have done nothing to show that more people would not have been
> murdered had there been no cops.

That's frosting on the cake. I'll keep my eyes open for proof of that.
If America resolved to oppose all violence and abolished cops for that
reason, the pravailing national ethos would be so strong that private-
sector murders would be dramatically dimished.

> I think Rommell's figures are very powerful. If it was me, I wouldn't try
> to force some comparison to non-government deaths. When you do that, the
> reader (i.e. me) starts thinking of why your comparison may or may not be
> fallacious instead of focusing on the millions of people slaughtered by
> governemnts in this century.

OK, I'll make the case so strong that it's invincible.


Kevin C.
http://members.aol.com/xiananarch/homepage.htm
--------------------------------------------------------

And they shall beat their swords into plowshares
and sit under their Vine & Fig Tree.
Micah 4:1-7

Subj: Rummel
Date: 8/1/00
To: comunicus@hotmail.com

By the way, I do appreciate the constructive criticism on this issue.

But the more I think about it, the more I realize that I need to
really play this issue up, perhaps as another one of those
paradigm shift things. My goal is not merely to create shadows
of doubt about the goodness of the state, or generate questions
about our ability to assess the statistical claims of the State,
but to create dogmatic certainty that it must be abolished.

Rummel is not an anarchist. But he is shocked by the level
of violence initiated by the State. And his threshold of "violence"
is much lower and less conspiratorial than mine (e.g., I doubt he
believes the CIA deals cocaine. Such narco-terrorism is surely
a species of violence which must be laid at the feet of the state
http://thenewamerican.com/tna/1997/vo13no22/vo13no22_battle.htm
http://thenewamerican.com/focus/drugs/index.htm
). His book, Death by Government, plainly establishes the fact
that governments are guilty of more crimes than private citizens.
The paradigm of most Americans is that the government PREVENTS
crime, and without the government crime would increase. There
are two responses to this. First, if no other changes in our
thinking were to take place, and the State were to be abolished
tomorrow, instantly, the level of crime (committed by the State)
would obviously drop, and the world would be safer (even though a
FEELING of safety would not be present, because "we"
"consent" to most of the crimes committed in our day (com-
mitted as they are by the State) and do not consider them
crimes or violence. But Second, we could not abolish the State
without widespread realization that it is evil, and without a
widespread paradigm shift that all violence must be opposed.
If this transformation of thinking were to occur, and then the
state were to be abolished, there would be unfathomable changes.
There would be, in short, Vine & Fig Tree.

I don't want to create what you are experiencing: mere doubt
about statistical evaluation of the State. A feeling that we
can't really come to clear conclusions and make a dramatic break
with the status quo, and are stuck with the State until Jesus comes again.
I want to create a paradigm shift, that institutionalizing violence is
a bad idea. That the very concept of "the State" is a bad idea
in the minds of good people, a great idea in the minds of criminals.
That the State is the greatest enemy to world transformation
in the history of man. That the ideas of the Prince of Peace
and the King of kings will bring about a stateless New Creation.
I don't want people to say, "Well, I just don't know. I agree that
the State needs to be reformed, but . . . . " I want people to
have an "Ah-ha!" experience: "Oh, yes, *of course*! We MUST
abolish the State! The whole idea must be purged from our
thinking!"

I need to create a two-column page (one each for both America
and the world). Column One lists crimes committed by criminals
(in both jurisdictions [U.S. and world]). Column Two lists crimes
in the same category committed by governments (in both jurisdictions
[U.S. and world]). The monetary value of theft committed by
government vastly exceeds the monetary value of theft committed
by private criminals. The number of people injured or killed by
the State (or sanctioned by the State) vastly exceeds the
number committed by private "criminals." The disparity is
overwhelming.

And, I naturally link to my separation of church and state page,
because the secular State is the greatest obstacle to teaching
would-be criminals that God says not to kill and steal.

I invite your continued scrutiny.


Kevin C.
http://members.aol.com/XianAnarch/pacifism/rummel.htm
---------------------------------------------

And they shall beat their swords into plowshares
and sit under their Vine & Fig Tree.
Micah 4:1-7