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  13 messages posted in selected forums since your last session began:
I have no idea. Jeff V 2/14/00
It still looks like a contradiction to me. Jeff V 2/14/00
Luke 22: 36 jksorrow 2/13/00
Too many words...for nothing FjetF 2/13/00
Pacifism a local US phenomenon FjetF 2/13/00
I like you Kevin I've liked every Pacifist I've ever met JL Foreman 2/13/00
More Assumptions Russ Warren 2/12/00
WOW Hitch 2/12/00
This forum... Russ Warren 2/12/00
Murder & Pacifism Hitch 2/12/00


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Date: February 14, 2000 12:54 AM
Author: Jeff V (v_jeff@hushmail.com)
Subject: I have no idea.

Why did he say that the two swords Peter and John had always carried were enough?

Why did he tell Peter that, "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword?"

That one I have a clue on. Peter was an expert swordsman. Every swordsman I've asked says it was a very difficult trick Peter pulled. They say that clearly Peter disarmed Malchus and then to show off his skill purposefully removed the ear.

Peter was bragging about his abilities by doing his enemy a minor wound. Peter was good with the sword and had faith in his ability. As good as he was though, he was never a match for the whole crowd. Peter's attitude would get him killed. "He who lives by (has faith in) the sword will die by the sword." Jesus was not rebuking Peter's actions so much as his misplaced faith.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39641)


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Date: February 14, 2000 12:17 AM
Author: Jeff V (v_jeff@hushmail.com)
Subject: It still looks like a contradiction to me.

But we are suppose to give to those who ask. The Republic of Texas asked. Nowhere are we told to subject them to the ethical pressure of God's Word or any other pressure.

To everybody else: Kevin is the first person any of us has ever met who has hung out a sign on his house that says "Come rob me, I won't shoot back." (Look at his website.) I'm impressed. There really are people with the courage of their pacifist convictions.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39640)


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Date: February 13, 2000 08:00 PM
Author: jksorrow (jksorro@pacbell.net)
Subject: Luke 22: 36

Kevin,

Why do you think Jesus told His disciples, "and let him who has no sword sell his mantle and but a sword?"

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39635)


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Date: February 13, 2000 01:22 AM
Author: FjetF (bojidar@mail.vega.bg)
Subject: Too many words...for nothing

You get conformed to that Robin Amillenial Guy that has a perfect theological system and never has practical solutions to practical problems.

Before engaging in political propaganda again, go back to my question about a society with all Christians and one murderer and give me a practical, covenantal solution to the problem. If you can write articles, you should at least stay on the track for a while.

A Freedom JetFighter

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39630)


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Date: February 13, 2000 01:10 AM
Author: FjetF (bojidar@mail.vega.bg)
Subject: Pacifism a local US phenomenon

I read most of what this Kevin Craig guy has put as links on this forum. (Good propaganda abilities, Kevin; you should have become a political propagandist.)

It can work in a country where "Archists," now and in the past, have risked their lives and spent their efforts to enforce social order, punishing the criminals and creating a predictable social environment. I understand why Eastern Europe lacks this species - the moment such guys publicly identify themselves, they'll lose their life and possessions (I'll miss other details). There are some "anarcho-pacifists" in Russia, but they live in a remote communities far in the backwoods, in poor villages away from the civilization.

Hurray for the Archists that make the Anarchists's life possible!

A Freedom JetFighter

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39629)


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Date: February 13, 2000 12:16 AM
Author: JL Foreman (acf@swva.net)
Subject: I like you Kevin I've liked every Pacifist I've ever met

In School I had to read all the leading pacifist activist of our day From Ghandi the urine drinker and King the Bible quoting adulterer, to Yoder the kind and The Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger guilt manipulator who's name I can never remember. Everyone in school was a pacifist.

Then professionally for 10 years I went all across the country beaten with my fellow pacifists, sued with them, arrested and imprisoned with them.

No Kevin I have had a bellyfull of that stuff from the experts, from the professors and from the actual practicioners. I was always kind, friendly and polite because they truly are emotionally nice and caring people.

You had a few technical inaccuracies in your assessments but you made all the same mistakes they did. For instance, you equate any form of lethal or potentially lethal action as violence. You say, with Walt Disney's Simba in the Lion King -- "No Scar I won't kill you then I would be just like you." This is such an obvious phalicy that has become common place that it slides by. It equates killing the one who threatens the life of the innocent with killing the innocent. It gives the same moral value to killing the rapist as raping the innocent child. Just to point out two obvious absurdities. Perhaps no killing at all is commanded by the Bible, I can at least recognize that as a possibility, but to say all killing is the same? That is sheer stupidity, or calculated deception.

Another silly mistake is the idea that those who believe the use of lethal force is commanded by Scripture under some circumstances believe it is commanded under all circumstances. Thus the tiresome lecture on how I am too lazy to think of other possible forms of intervention.

Let's see, I've been arrested almost 100 times and led about 12,000 people into and out of jail. I've been a part of saving about 3,000 lives that I know of and countless more that are not documented. I've physically stepped between fighting individuals and warring gangs often armed with knives and razors and physically separated them at least 250 to 300 times on many occasions as the only white boy in the room. I've been trampled by horses, put into a holding tanks on several occasions as the only whitey who had it leaked by the police through another inmate that I was a police informant. Been beaten by jackbooted thugs 35 times one time dragged senseless through a pile of horseshit judging from what was all over my face and body when I came-to hogtied in the back of a car where I sat in the desert sun with the windows rolled up for the next 4 hours. Run over by cars and trucks (SUV), chained to the bottom of a police bus. And God help us, once in jail we spent a full 2 years worth in all with nothing to do but think of non-violent ways to disrupt the other side without hurting anyone or damaging anything. I've been spat on, peed on, shit on, ejaculated on, and bitten by members those who opposed me. Spent weeks in solitary confinement for leading worship services with inmates. (Sorry ed, but it's true I don't mean to talk about it too much because it is prideful, but one thing you'll like is that we sang only Psalms without accompanyment until the guards finally couldn't stand it any more and threw me in solitary for leading a jailhouse riot -- Psalms ed you should have been there. Think of it ed, solitary for defending the regulative principle!)

In short I think I've thought through some non-violent alternative to the use of force. But you hear this sort of tripe thrown around as if I think we should use force because I've never thought of alternatives much less practiced them.

When I say pacifists are cowards, I don't mean that personally they are not very courageous in withstanding punishment for their beliefs. I mean objectively their position is cowardly. In principle they are willing to let the innocent receive any sort of horrible death than use force if that is their only recourse. There are many reasons why I did not do more and will not do more than I have done to protect the weak and defenseless. But what I will never do is devise a principle of cowardice that in effect enables me wipe my mouth with the back of my hand and say, "I have done no wrong." while the evil continues on unabated while I might have done more.

I've just lost a 110 million dollar law-suit which determined that anything I say is the same as a death threat. Why? Becuase I refused to back down on the idea that Pacifism as a principled belief system is evil.

Which brings up the third silly slight of hand Pacifists use to brow-beat the brave. They act as if taking nonviolent direct action is the same thing as pacifism. It isn't. There are many times that non-violent direct action is more powerful than the use of force. There are many times that being non-violent is the only reasonable way to act. But the difference between this and Pacifism is that the Pacifist condemns those who actually protect their neighbor when the use of force is all that will protect their neighbor at that time.

Of course you object to being called a principled Pacifist -- anything that distinguishes you from your tactics is anathema to you because you want to think that pacifism means a series of brave tactics. I don't give a fig about the tactics, been there done that. But there is a difference and that is the principle that loving your neighbor enought to actually SAVE his life is evil if it means doing something more than our nice little protest tactics.

One final exposure of Oz the Great and Terrible behind his screen and then I really have to go for a few weeks. And that is your objection to my observation that you have your freedom to be a pacifist because brave men and women are willing to kill to protect your hide and those you love most.

You went off on the following four points as if you were being wronged by this government:

1) You said they stole money from you and called it taxes in order to pay for your protection in a way you didn't want to be protected.

Look, go live somewhere you don't have to pay taxes, such as give all your money away and be tax exempt. Or move to Ghana, Or the middle of the Amazon Jungle. Better yet, go to Chechnia and put your pacifistic theories into practice. I know a place you won't be taxed for pacifism, go to Sudan. No you will stay here because you prefer "the house that violence built" to use your terms.

2) They will put conscious objectors in jail who don't want to participate in the system at all and you said that all the nations of the earth do this, they are hostile to pacifism.

Yes they are. Here is someone who wants to enjoy the peace and prosperity of a political order such as it is, and yet wants a free ride because he disagrees with something. Particularly he disagrees with their protecting his skin. Why shouldn't you be thrown in jail or fined?

I hated it when I was with them professionally, and I hate it today, Pacifists whine about what is done to them for their views, when the very freedom to whine is protected by the life blood of others whom they call cowards.

Pacifism is principled cowardice. Under the guise of loving your neighbor you claim it is wrong to love him in a way that would actually save his life if you had the power to do so.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39628)


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Date: February 12, 2000 11:58 PM
Author: Russ Warren (rvwarren1@home.com)
Subject: More Assumptions

Gee Hitch, I wonder how you guessed it!

I do have special clairvoyant abilities that have been honed from dealing with this forum for over a year and a half (hardly a "few posts" by any means). I have seen so much ungodly handling of serious subjects in this forum that it astounds me. Not to say that I haven't done my share, I know I have. But I am willing to write chapter and verse, instead of just assuming that everyone knows my opinion about why things are out of "murdered contexts".

So much for clairvoyance. "You shall not suffer a witch to live." Exodus 22:18

Russ

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39627)


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Date: February 12, 2000 11:36 PM
Author: Hitch (Hitch2k@hotmail.com)
Subject: WOW

With your special clairvoyant abilites I figured you had all the information you would need. I must admit to a certain amazement as to how much you are able to glean from just a few posts. Well done.

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39626)


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Date: February 12, 2000 11:04 PM
Author: Russ Warren (rvwarren1@home.com)
Subject: This forum...

Wow, this forum never ceases to amaze me. We "dab a tear for the murdered context"s, but never show how. We assert and never prove, we say and leave there. If only we could speak fiat truth like God, we would have this forum working correctly. But, alas, Genesis 3:5 is still a lie. Oops, did I say that? Sorry...guess all this assertion w/o proof (in the hopes that the more gullible on this forum will buy our words w/o said proof, much like over 90% of the "Christians" in the United States today) has made my cynical.

Russ

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39625)


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Date: February 12, 2000 08:14 PM
Author: Hitch (Hitch2k@hotmail.com)
Subject: Murder & Pacifism

Pardon me while I dab a tear for the murdered context...

(http://freebooks.forums.commentary.net/forums/Index.cfm?Message_ID=39624)

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