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501c3 Church
Q & A on
501c3 church incorporation
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Girly
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts:
19
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 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005
12:14 pm Post
subject: Romans 13 |
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I think this is the right
section. Please forgive me if it isn't
Peter,
Do you know of any other contemporary
Pastor/Teacher/Authors that hold to Romans 13 like Jonathan
Mayhew does?
That seems to be the toughest obstacle to
pastors accepting the "Free" Church. The believe they are
required to obey if asked because the governing authorities
are "ordained by God." And they aren't asking Church's to do
anything that is "clearly" in violation of God's word.
(Emphasis on "CLEARLY")
That's been my experience
anyway.
(Jan 18, 8:30 my time) I'm rethinking my
question... Instead of focusing on Romans 13, I'm thinking the
biggest problem is more in line with not having
"book/chapter/verse" to show that it is wrong for the church
leaders to incorporate the Church. That was my experience with
my pastor. He has "book/chapter/verse" (Romans 13) to show
they are to submit (so long as they are not asked to do
anything in violation of God's word). But, I don't have
"book/chapter/verse" to show that it is CLEARLY a violation of
God's word. (Emphasis on "CLEARLY"... again) | |
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peterkershaw
Site Admin
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Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 296
Location:
Branson, Missouri
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005
1:59 pm Post subject:
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I agree with you that the
pervasiveness of statism is one of the biggest obstacles in
getting pastors to see the importance of the free-church. In
varying degrees most pastors have embraced statism and, as
such, they don't view it as a form of idolatry to subordinate
the church of Jesus Christ to the State.
At page 19 of
the Home Study Catalog you will find a book and
tape series by Pastor John Weaver on Romans 13. You may find
this to be a very useful resource in motivating your own
pastor to unlicense his church.
Pastor Weaver is one
of the very few pastors remaining in America who has a right
understanding of why God has ordained civil government,
biblical civil government vs. pagan civil government, and why
Christians must resist tyrannical government. Needless to say,
Pastor Weaver also pastors a free-church. | |
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NoInc
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts:
3
Location: Belleview Florida
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005
12:08 am Post
subject: |
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I agree with Pastor
Weaver's conclusions. We did a radio Interview with brother
Weaver about a month ago here in Florida. and we discussed
this issue. he has a very solid grasp on the topic of a
Christians responsibilities toward Government. Get his 3 book
set...
http://www.preaching-freedom.com/
pastor Mike
_________________
1Co 7:21 Art thou
called being a seruant? care not for it: but if thou maist be
made free, vse it rather.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a
price, be not ye the seruants of men. | |
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Girly
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts:
19
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005
2:05 pm Post subject:
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Is Romans 13 speaking to
the Church or Christians? Is there a difference? I can't put
my finger on it, but I am believing Romans 13 is not speaking
to the Church, but Christians. The Christians in the world are
living under all sorts of different "authorities" over various
periods of time. But, the Church has only one authority - the
Lord Jesus Christ. Is it possible that Jesus would tell His
bride to submit to local authorities as long as those
authorities don't ask her to violate what her Lord has already
said she either is or is not to do? Can anyone who agrees give
supporting scripture for this position? I've been in some hard
meetings with my Pastor and it seems to be boiling down to
this issue. In my way of thinking, there is a difference
between the Church of Jesus Christ and the many members that
comprise it.
Edited as of 4:20 PM 4/2/05 -
How
about this... The Church is spiritual - the people are
physical. Is it possible any earthly government (that
possesses God granted authority to maintain order in the
physical world) can have any authority over any spiritual entity without
that spiritual entity first voluntarily submitting? How does
Romans 13 demonstrate that God granted earthly governments
athority over any spiritual thing? I don't see it! | |
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peterkershaw
Site Admin
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Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 296
Location:
Branson, Missouri
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005
4:08 pm Post subject:
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| Girly wrote: |
| Is Romans 13 speaking to the Church or
Christians? |
Both.
In point of fact Romans 13 is
speaking to each and every person, and each and every
institution, as well. God's Law, and godly-ordained authority,
are for all people and all institutions, whether they worship
God or not.
girly, your confusion stems from a lack of
appreciation of what constitutes a "higher power." But this
forum is hardly the venue for clearing up such confusions.
Clearing up people's confusion on Romans 13
necessitated that Pastor Weaver write an entire book on the
subject, and give a six-part sermon series. I'd recommend you
get it. | |
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Norman Patterson
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts:
60
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005
4:55 am Post subject:
Pastor John Weaver |
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You can find his sermons on
sermon audio.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=John%5EWeaver
Find the sermons THE CHRISTIAN AND CIVIL GOVERNMENT.
It is a 4 part series.
All his sermons are well worth
your time to listen to. In fact, I consider Pastor Weaver to
be the finest expositor of the Bible I have ever heard, and I
have been a Christian for over 30 years and a pastor for close
to 20 years.
Norman
Patterson
_________________
Norman H. Patterson,
Jr | |
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peterkershaw
Site Admin
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Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 296
Location:
Branson, Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005
8:00 am Post subject:
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Thanks Norman. Pastor
Weaver informed me some time ago that many of his sermons were
on Sermon Audio. Sorry that I forgot.
John Weaver's
sermons on Romans 13 entitled The Christian and Civil
Government, can be found at The Christian and Civil
Government | |
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Girly
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts:
19
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005
5:07 pm Post subject:
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| Thanks for the input from
y'all. I'll check it out. | |
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ThePatrioticLutheran
Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts:
11
Location: Concordia Theological Seminary
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005
9:30 pm Post subject:
Romans 13 |
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Hello Girly-
| Quote: |
| That seems to be the toughest obstacle
to pastors accepting the "Free" Church. The believe they
are required to obey if asked because the governing
authorities are "ordained by God." And they aren't
asking Church's to do anything that is "clearly" in
violation of God's word. (Emphasis on "CLEARLY")
|
Please
keep in mind that pastors are sinful human beings like the
rest of us. It is not an excuse, but the truth of the matter
is that most pastors, just like the laity they are called to
serve, are victims of statist indoctrination permeated via the
government indoctrination centers (a.k.a. "public schools")
and the controlled media.
Romans 13: 1-7 does indeed
demand obedience to those in authority, and those who rebel
against said authority risk bringing the wrath of God down
upon themselves (v. 3). Both Luther and Calvin even went so
far as to warn against rebelling against unjust rulers; seeing
them as God's judgement against a nation that had turned its
back to God.
HOWEVER, in the United States, it is WE
THE PEOPLE who are the "Higher Powers," and a return to
catechizing our people as to their proper role (vocation, we
Lutherans like to say) as citizens would be a large step
toward restoring some sanity in this nation.
For
instance, there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth toward
the judiciary over the cold-blooded murder of Terri Shindler
last week. That said, except for a few folks over at the
Constitution Party, few people are aware of the fact that any
number of those elected officials with whom we have entrusted
the defense of our Constitutionally-enumerated rights could
have legally intervened to save Terri's life, but chose not
to. (Pleas from the executive or legislative branches that
"I've done all I can" do not impress the Constitutionalist.)
We have been duped, through our own apathy and
laziness, into buying the "party line," about how our churches
should be organized...i.e. as corporate entities. Sadly, we
have failed to read the large print, that by incorporating the
church, we legally waive any and all rights otherwise
guaranteed the Church of Jesus Christ via the representative
republic established by the Founding Fathers.
The
truth of the matter is that "Incorporated Christianity" has
been merely tolerated by society at-large up to this point. As
the culture becomes increasingly anti-Christian, it will
legally be able to silence the incorporated church at
will...appeals to "First Amendment Rights" will be of no
avail!
Education is the key, spoken in Christian love,
to those who have not yet been made aware of the Matrix in
which we have become entangled. If you have not yet read "In
Caesar's Grip," you must do so immediately! It probably
wouldn't hurt to check out a copy of the Constitution while
you're at it. (Check it out for free at: http://www.house.gov/paul/impdoc.htm ).
In closing, try not to become discouraged. I estimate
that about one in forty people that I talk to are interested
in stepping outside their comfort zone. Don't waste time with
those who simply will not listen to reason, no matter how
convincing your facts...move on to the next potential
"convert."
Most importantly of all, remember that no
matter what, we are already victorious through the Death and
Resurrection of Jesus Christ! (1 Cor. 15:57).
Peace be
with you,
The Patriotic Lutheran
[/i]
_________________
So it is a mistake when
some wiseacres maintain now that it is enough for a preacher
to tell everyone what is right and simply to preach the
Gospel, but not to touch the bishops, the princes, and
other(s) since this causes unrest and
discord...Luther | |
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